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  • Anarcho-Syndicalism versus
    American Conservatism Debate

    On Land and Work

    Between Punkerslut and
    the American First Party


    From PeaceLibertad Blog
    Image: From Peace Libertad Blog,
    "No capitalisme" Gallery

    Date: December 31, 2009


    by Punkerslut


    Letter #01

    By Punkerslut

    663 Words

    Summary: All workers have a right to work any land and to benefit from their labor.

    Quote: "If you want to give work to our people, then give them the lands! You're not going to end poverty, homelessness, war, ignorance, hate and bigotry when the common people can't provide for themselves." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #02

    By the America First Party

    181 Words

    Summary: Land is cheap enough in America if workers need someplace to work. The real problem is taxes on businesses.

    Quote: "There is plenty of cheap land in America - that is not the problem. The problem is the abusive regulation and taxation that suffocates enterprise." -- The America First Party

    Letter #03

    By Punkerslut

    1,030 Words

    Summary: If the government's taxes destroy businesses, then why do governments help out businesses so much in wars? And the idea of land Socialization is compatible with Enlightenment and American Revolutionary ideals.

    Quote: "Our government will kill in a foreign war, and it is the common worker who pays for it with their life. Those in the war suffer miserably, but the wealthy industrialist makes billions off of weapons and land contracts." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #04

    By the America First Party

    390 Words

    Summary: Of course government supports the biggest business, but it's against the small businesses, so it isn't Free Enterprise. The real defense of property starts with fighting taxes.

    Quote: "The founders did hold property involate, and they would be appalled at the tax rates levied these days. We pay anywhere from 30 to 50% in taxes on everything we make." -- The America First Party

    Letter #05

    By Punkerslut

    911 Words

    Summary: If property should be given to its owner, then give the land to those who have been exploited and oppressed by Capitalists.

    Quote: "The people don't need profit: they need food, shelter, and to provide these things for their families. The Capitalist creates enterprises because of their want of profit; for them, it is about buying the next limo, or vintage champagne, or caviar. The businessman seeks to give himself luxury, the common worker seeks to feed their family." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #06

    By the America First Party

    927 Words

    Summary: For there to be wealth, there must be a Capitalist. To say that workers should claim the land is just theft.

    Quote: "The idea that the land owners 'don't want you to work' is ludicrous. You are not 'entitled' to work - you have to provide something that is of value to someone with the money and interest to pay you for it." -- The America First Party

    Letter #07

    By Punkerslut

    2,004 Words

    Summary: There are plenty of statistics showing that poverty exists even in America. And also, capital is just made by workers. Economists generally support the idea that property is used for exploitation.

    Quote: "The workers make all of the wealth. The capital you speak of, also, was made by the workers. (Or did dams and canals suddenly appear, like Moses calling on god's miracles?)" -- Punkerslut

    Letter #08

    By the America First Party

    267 Words

    Summary: Those statistics were invented by the government and Capitalism has work for everyone.

    Quote: "You are so disconnected from reality in your statistics and views that it is difficult to engage you." -- The America First Party

    Letter #09

    By Punkerslut

    892 Words

    Summary: Many of the workers have been oppressed by Capitalists bribing police and government. And even when taxes were low, unemployment was still high.

    Quote: "If you believe in the right to property, then give to the workers what belongs to us! Either that, or you will have to justify slavery and violence as part of 'free trade.'" -- Punkerslut

    Letter #10

    By the America First Party

    777 Words

    Summary: Laborers didn't create the property and they have no right to receive back what was taken from them. Your statistics are inaccurate and cutting the deficit would create jobs.

    Quote: "Wealth is not created alone by the workers. The labor is one ingredient, but there are many other ingredients as well." -- The America First Party

    Letter #11

    By Punkerslut

    3,135 Words

    Summary: I agree that Socialist Parties won't help the situation, but all CEOs and businesses make their money by slavery. Also, economists agree that laborers are responsible for all wealth.

    Quote: "Where there is freedom and liberty, people tend to organize to achieve mutual and cooperative ends. This necessarily means the union, and striking, in order to create jobs and to give people the right to work. But such organizations have been so violently oppressed, since the dawn of government." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #12

    By the America First Party

    646 Words

    Summary: There are instances where the law favors labor, like how the Wagner Act requires a Capitalist to negotiate. True freedom of contract would not mean that workers get ownership of the land.

    Quote: "I dispute your claim that true freedom of contract would result in the workers owning the property. I don't know why you believe this, but I see no evidence for it." -- The America First Party

    Letter #13

    By Punkerslut

    1,789 Words

    Summary: All businesses have made their profits by working with dictators and forced labor camps. And the Wagner Act is pathetic compared to how much Capitalists exploit workers and manipulate government.

    Quote: "...that's us, the workers. We didn't just mine the iron out of the earth, transport it on a train, and then manufacture it into a commodity -- we also designed many of the instruments and tools from point A, where it was ore, and point B, where it was a commodity." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #14

    By the America First Party

    796 Words

    Summary: A few cases in history doesn't prove widespread oppression. If workers were to own the lands, it would be theft.

    Quote: "How dare you suggest that I stole anything. You have a real moral problem to make such a claim.... Please do not think that, because you have had problems, that makes it ok for you to take my property, that I earned fair and square, and didn't steal from anybody. Because if you do, that makes you a common thief. And for that, you should go to prison." -- The America First Party

    Letter #15

    By Punkerslut

    2,479 Words

    Summary: These 'few cases' were actually massive and involved many of the people. In such an environment, where one class threatens another, there is no such thing as free contract.

    Quote: "On the other hand, there is the Capitalist class -- they spread lies in the media, they spend billions on political candidates, they rig elections in third worlds, fund and support covert military operations, and they even gave the Iranian Shah his power in Operation Ajax." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #16

    By the America First Party

    1,041 Words

    Summary: There is no class solidarity among workers and they often resort to violence themselves. Your proposal is unjust.

    Quote: "Your solution makes you just as bad as the capitalists you deride: you will use force to take my property, to redress the actions of OTHER PEOPLE who used force to hold property." -- The America First Party

    Letter #17

    By Punkerslut

    2,573 Words

    Summary: If a Capitalist didn't directly steal wealth, they profited off of it. You need to be able to show me more evidence of why Capitalists deserve productive wealth, because you haven't shown any yet. John Locke and Adam Smith support my argument.

    Quote: "Just like your suggestion that poverty statistics are made up by the government, or that the capitalist class does not possess stolen capital, or that labor is not responsible for all wealth -- sure, that is your idea, and you have every right to believe it as fervently as you want. BUT -- if you want to convince me that you're right, why not try showing some evidence?" -- Punkerslut

    Letter #18

    By the America First Party

    1,019 Words

    Summary: You're twisting Adam Smith's words. And if the Capitalists are criminals for stealing property, then so are the workers for getting wages in stolen property.

    Quote: "Under your theory, if a bum on the street collects some cardboard for shanty to sleep in, he is a thief because cardboard was manufactured by capitalists who stole everything they have." -- The America First Party

    Letter #19

    By Punkerslut

    1,754 Words

    Summary: Workers do hold some responsibility, but they are not the primary reason why Capitalism is exploitive and oppressive. Capitalists are the reason. And if you don't want workers to work the land, then why not let them lease it for cheap or near-free?

    Quote: "Why not let the laborers borrow the land and factories? We're looking at a situation where there are empty fields and idle factories. On the other side, there are the poor and the working class, waving signs that read 'will work for food." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #20

    By the America First Party

    834 Words

    Summary: If you want unions, go ahead, but you're making an arbitrary division between the interests of the Capitalists and the laborers. Entrepreneurs contribute to society, too.

    Quote: "But getting to your concrete, substantive proposal in the last paragraphs: there is plenty of land and idle buildings that could be used by people to create 'co-ops' - indeed, there are many companies who would be eager to permit such use of idle resources." -- The America First Party

    Letter #21

    By Punkerslut

    2,094 Words

    Summary: Setting up a business isn't a real option for common workers, and to guarantee common prosperity, they must have free access to the means of production.

    Quote: "The reason why workers don't self-start their businesses, likewise, should be easy to see: they have no means of buying the capital necessary to start a business. The worker, living off of minimum wage, is not even capable of living above the poverty level." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #22

    By the America First Party

    916 Words

    Summary: I do not agree with the labor theory of value, so labor is not responsible for wealth. Remember that Capitalists bring their intelligence to the business, too.

    Quote: "You claim you have documented a general trend, but you have not. All you have documented is a low level of dishonest dealings by some businessmen throughout history." -- The America First Party

    Letter #23

    By Punkerslut

    2,131 Words

    Summary: There is exploitation of workers today in America, such as the New Orleans reconstruction workers. And competition can guarantee neither just wages nor good prices when only a few control all of everything.

    Quote: "The greatest incentive to labor is to receive the whole product of your wealth; you believe this is the case with taxes against business, but not with profits against workers." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #24

    By the America First Party

    1,121 Words

    Summary: You're completely misquoting Adam Smith. And as you should be aware, there isn't enough land and capital for all in America.

    Quote: "Of course, the solution is: don't work for anybody. Just be a bum, and complain about how all the land is locked up and nobody will let you have any to work. It'll be a lie, but maybe it'll make you feel better." -- The America First Party

    Letter #25

    By Punkerslut

    3,058 Words

    Summary: Statistics show that throughout Brazil and Britain, very few own everything. It's quite clear from an abundance of evidence that Capitalists are all supported and defended by the state.

    Quote: "We know what happens when a Capitalist tries to change the world: they get their wish, even if millions have to die for it. And we know what happens when workers try to change THIS system; they are persecuted, blacklisted, beaten, imprisoned, and some are even killed." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #26

    By the America First Party

    316 Words

    Summary: You're misunderstanding Adam Smith. And do you really think that the state uses force routinely in controlling laborers?

    Quote: "Do you admit that labor is not routinely violently oppressed by the government today on behalf of the capitalists in America? Because if you won't admit that, then you are either a liar or mentally unstable yourself." -- The America First Party

    Letter #27

    By the America First Party

    430 Words

    Summary: Furthermore, you completely misunderstand Christ. If you submit to him, you will be saved.

    Quote: "For the Scriptures teach us that the punishment for rebellion against God is eternal death. Being just, God cannot in mercy set that aside, so He devised a method of salvation by the substitution of His own Son the Savior - we call this the Gospel, or Good News!" -- The America First Party

    Letter #28

    By Punkerslut

    1,774 Words

    Summary: I'm not going to argue about Adam Smith if you haven't read him. But you should know that the government statistics about prosecution definitely show a trend in favor of business against labor.

    Quote: "If I live in fear of that which I do not know, then I am hardly living. Those who worked to end poverty and hunger and homelessness, are burning in hell, too, because they did not believe. What an unjust punishment for those who have spent more time in alleviating the misery of the poor and hungry, than in speculating on a world after this one." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #29

    By Punkerslut

    502 Words

    Summary: Businesses enter into cartels and price-fixing so as to control markets, and they destroy jobs this way. You haven't addressed of any these points.

    Quote: "It is the natural inclination to profit that leads Capitalists to excluding others from the land. There is enough land and industry for all to work and be their own masters, but instead, unemployment rises and falls, continuing but never dying. And this will always be the case, so long as there is private ownership of the means of production." -- Punkerslut

    Letter #30

    By the America First Party

    621 Words

    Summary: We are greatly opposed to police repression of the people, and you should know that Socialist governments have been extremely repressive of their people.

    Quote: "The dispute over your quotation of Smith is very simple: you quoted him, I reminded you of it, you denied making that particular quotation, I reprinted your verbatim quotaton. I think the truth is, you got confused about whom you had quoted." -- The America First Party

    Letter #31

    By the America First Party

    556 Words

    Summary: We can't blame god for the cause of evil in the universe, and all morality stems from him. Our guilt is expunged by belief in the savior.

    Quote: "You may deny God's power as displayed in the creation, but that denial is a lie. Ultimately, as you yourself demonstrate in your writings, you do not like to retain the knowledge of God in your mind, because you do not wish to submit to His righteousness and law." -- The America First Party

    Letter #32

    By the America First Party

    556 Words

    Summary: Your idea of cooperative economy is a fantasy. Workers wouldn't be able to do anything if the means of production were handed over to them.

    Quote: "It amazes me that one make can start with nothing, and with hard work and saving and ingenuity, can become a rich capitalist, creating jobs for hundreds or thousands of people, and you despise him." -- The America First Party

    Letter #33

    By Punkerslut

    3,769 Words

    Summary: Police brutality rates are high even in so-called "democratic countries," an isolated few control all lands in either state Capitalism or Communism, and bringing up god isn't going to end hunger, poverty, and unemployment.

    Quote: "Poverty, unemployment, and homelessness are not natural products, caused by lack of ambition. They're caused by markets being fixed for poverty; they're caused by the intentional mismanagement of society's resources." -- Punkerslut

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